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Hi. My name is Karen Petty, and I am a descendant of John and Loveday Petty. I had the geneology booklet from my Aunt Joyce and Uncle Elven, but it has been lost. I just today decided to start researching my family history on my own, and the first thing that popped up when I put John and Loveday’s names into the internet was your wonderful site! What a thrill it was to begin reading it! Thank you, and I will be checking back hopefully for more info.
Karen
Hi Karen: I am pleased that you found my blog about the Smiths is useful to you in your family history searching. I will be adding more information to my blog when I can.
Hi Jean,
Thanks for such an interesting blog. I am the direct ancestor of Hannah Smith’s husband, Thomas Brindley of Marple, Poynton, Gawsworth and Cashel. See my family history on the Marple website: http://www.marple-uk.com/marple_brindleys.htm
I have a copy of Thomas’s Will and the Smiths are mentioned in it. Thomas lived at Gawsworth Hall alongside the Earl of Harrington. In his Will he left a cellar of wine, no wonder he died of an enlarged liver in 1875. My great grandfather Thomas, grandson of Thomas and Hannah, was born in Cashel.
Thomas of Gawsworth’s son Francis Brindley (named after his grandfather of Hollinsclough, Staffs and Marple, Cheshire) lived and farmed Rough Hey farm, Gawsworth. This farm once belonged to Henry Brindley, a younger brother of the great canal engineer, James Brindley. This information implies a link to our Brindleys and the canal engineer. Both of these Brindley families came from Alstonefield in the Staffordshire Moorlands.
Plenty more for you to have a look at Jean if the above is of interest.
Francis Brindley of Grantham, Robert Brindley of Marple and Bosley etc..
Noel
Hi Jean,
I of course meant by ‘direct ancestor’, the patriline, as I of course am a direct ancestor of Hannah Smith too. My Great, Great Grandfather was John Brindley, the eldest son of Thomas Brindley and Hannah Brindley, nee Smith.
Noel
I found your web site when researching Cyrus Slater (Cheshire). I notice you have put a photo of a Cyrus and Eliza Slater. Do you have their dates of birth and how are they related?
I look forward to your reply.
Thank you
Angela
Hello, Angela: The Cyrus Slater in the photograph was born in 1837 in Gawsworth, Cheshire. Eliza Slater was his wife and she was born in 1840 in Poynton, Cheshire. Her maiden name was Brindley.
I hope this helps you with your research.
Jean
Re Joseph Cowen d 1908. I was interested to see he named sister Ann Hetherington in his will. Sadly, she’d died in 1902. The address he and brother James were living at in 1871 is probably the one (hard to read) their father James left to their mother Esther in his will. Esther died in 1869 and Joseph was the sole executor.
I didn’t have a marriage for Joseph (knew from 1881 he had a wife Sarah), so it’s nice to fill in that gap from your website.
Hello, Cassie. Thanks for your comments about Joseph Cowen. That gives me a bit of context for his life. I am happy that my blog has given you some more information about his wife Sarah.
This is a great website. I was/am looking for a William Smith of London, a hairdresser. Came here on the off chance. Thank you.
Thanks, Chris. Sorry I can’t help you with your search for William Smith, hairdresser, in London.
I am a descendant of Richard Lockwood. Did you manage to identify which property your ancestors had from him? Richard Lockwood very much involved in the early development of Cashel.
Hello, Roger. My interpretation of William Bayly Upton’s will is that the property purchased from Richard Lockwood was in Fryar Street (named Friar’s Street in Griffith’s Valuation records). I cannot tell which precise piece or pieces of property were occupied by Thomas Carew. I do know that Mr. Carew was occupying property owned by William B. Upton on Friar’s Street in the late 1840s when the information for Griffith’s Valuation was being collected. I assume it was still the same property as listed in the will. Hope this helps you in your research on Richard Lockwood.
Hi, I’m wondering about Eliza Smith, or more specifically her brother William. Thanks for the excellent blog post on Eliza, it was very useful. In it, you mention that her brother William died an adolescent in 1849. I was wondering what your source for that was, as I have found the following death cert in Cashel for a William B Upton, age 44, died in 1874: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/b3be7020465320?b=
This would put his date of birth as 1830, which would line up perfectly with Eliza’s brother William, and, according the ‘Upton Family Records’, there were no other Uptons in Cashel at that time so I’m not sure who else it could be. The middle initial B would strongly suggest its a Bayly Upton, either a brother or cousin of Eliza.
Hello, Liam. I am very pleased to get your message and to know that someone is reading my blog! It’s been a while since I last added anything to the blog about the Smiths. I would love to know why you are interested in them – or maybe it is the Uptons?
Anyway, to answer your question about whether William Upton and William B Upton, both born around 1830 in Cashel, were the same person. No, these were two different people.
William Upton was born in 1832 and was the son of another William Upton, an apothecary, and Priscilla Kent; so he was the brother of Eliza Upton. William the son died in 1849 aged 16; I found a newspaper notice about that in the Limerick Chronicle dated 30 June 1949.
William B Upton was born around 1828 and was the son of David Upton and Mary Gilbert. Both these boys were grandsons of William Bayly Upton so they were first cousins.
I did some research on William B Upton who was born c 1828 and found a very bleak story. I wrote a blog post about it called “The Sad Story of William B Upton” and that was posted on the blog in November 2017. You can find the post in the archives for that month. His death is, as you know, listed in the civil records for 1874 and it says his age was 44. I believe that age is incorrect.
If you have more questions or comments, I would be happy to hear from you again. I will do my best to answer them.
Regards,
Jean
Hi Jean, yes it is the Uptons that I’m researching as I am one of this clan and I was trying to find a connection between my own ancestors in East Limerick and the other Uptons in Munster. So far I have only hit the same dead ends as WH Upton hit in his book on the family.
Thanks for another excellent blog, this time on William B Upton, I had assumed from the Upton Family Book that ‘life was wrecked in early manhood’ meant he had died before 25, but you have corrected me here, thanks for that 🙂 I agree with your comments on the blog that it is strange that a man with such a wealthy background could end up in such an unfortunate state, and the ‘life wrecked in early manhood’ comment only raises further questions. I guess we shall never know the answer to those questions!
Hi Liam: I am happy to know someone else is trying to connect the various Upton lines. My searches for information on the origin of William Bayly Upton have led me to think that his father was Christopher Upton possibly from Kilfinnane, County Limerick but I have no convincing proof of that. William Bayly Upton was definitely married in Cashel but there is no baptismal record for him there in the relevant time period. So I am pretty sure he was born elsewhere. The Church records for Kilfinnane were destroyed so I can’t check on his presence there.
Jean
Hi Jean, sorry I was unable to reply directly to your previous comment. What makes you think William Bayly had a father Christopher from Kilfinnane? The Upton Family Book also suggests Kilfinnane as his origin, but gives a possible father’s name as William. I might have a chance to visit the area in future, do you think there would be a chance to find the grave of a Christopher Upton?
Hi Liam: my apologies for the delay in responding to your latest message. My reason for thinking that William Bayly Upton’s father was Christopher Upton is that he called his eldest son Christopher. I know there is no assurance that the Uptons followed the “traditional” Irish naming pattern – they didn’t for their eldest daughter – but it is a reasonable guess. I found there was a Christopher Upton in Kilfinnane in the Freeholders lists of 1768 and 1776. That’s all I have to contribute. As to the chance of finding a grave for Christopher Upton in Kilfinnane, I have no idea. I have never had the opportunity to visit that area.
Hello Jean. My name is Justin Smith from Melbourne Australia. I may have information on Mary Jane and Hannah Kent, Priscilla’s sisters. It appears from the site Mary and Hannah migrated with family in c1853 to Victoria Australia.
Hello, Justin. Thank you for contacting me. My apologies for being slow to reply. I am very interested in your comments about two of Priscilla Kent’s sisters. From the hand-drawn chart of the Kent family tree, I could not decide if there were two daughters called Mary and Jane or if there was one daughter called Mary Jane! From the chart, I thought it said that Mary (Jane) married a William Smith and they had 5 children: Priscilla, Henry, Arthur, Jennie (or Jane?), and Aquila. The chart says they emigrated to Australia but I have no information on that. If you have information about this Smith family that would be wonderful.
About Hannah Kent, I am sure that she married Pilkington Commins in the late 1830s. They had 5 children born in the 1840s: Eliza, Pilkington, Henry, Daniel and Rebecca. In the mid-1850s, Pilkington Commins was renting a farm in King’s County (now called Offaly) and he also owned property in the town of Tullamore. I do not believe that Hannah and Pilkington Commins emigrated to Australia but if you have other information, again I would be pleased to get it. Hannah’s eldest daughter Eliza (proper name Elizabeth Pilkington Commins) did emigrate to Australia and married Thomas George Odlum there in 1864. I have not searched for information about this couple to learn if they had children.
Thank you for your comments.
Jean
Hi Jean,
I have just read your excellent article about Margaret Joyce nee Magrath and it appears that her husband Thomas Evans Joyce was my great grandmother’s brother so as your grandfather was a 2nd cousin of the Joyce children my grandfather Bernard O’Sullivan (1884-1957) was their 1st cousin.
Thomas Evans Joyce was born c.1848 to Tobias (Theobald) Joyce and Elizabeth Evans at Ashmount, Culliaghmore, Leenane, Co. Galway.
His father Tobias was son of Big Jack Joyce whose name regularly appeared in Traveller Accounts of Connemara written during the 1830’s and 40’s. His mother Elizabeth Evans was daughter of Thomas Evans of Cleggan, Connemara who came originally from Cashel, Co. Tipperary. Thomas Evans acted as senechal (a sort of small claims court judge) in the Manor Courts of the Martin’s of Ballinahinch, Connemara. Richard Martin MP (Humanity Dick) married, secondly, Harriet Evans of Co. Tipperary but I have not managed to link her to Thomas Evans.
John Evans Joyce joined the Royal Irish Constabulary in 1867 and this accounts for his many movements around the country. He seems to have found Margaret Magrath when posted in Tipperary where his grandfather Thomas Evans came from.
He retired from the RIC in 1892 and became Clerk of the Petty Sessions in Taghmon, Co. Wexford.
He was found dead in bed on 18 July 1903 aged 54. https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1903/05652/4591130.pdf
I had never heard of Margaret Magrath’s inheritance and the couples’ movements after they were married would not indicate the ownership of property in Cashel so this requires further investigation.
The marriage record of John & Margaret, of 14 Jun 1877, gives Margaret’s address as 6 Wellington Quay, Dublin and lists her father Terence’s occupation as “choirster” https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1877/11135/8077412.pdf
According to John’s RIC records, his religion was changed from Catholic to Protestant earlier in 1877 and I assume this was a condition of acquiring Margaret’s hand.
John & Margaret’s daughter Ephemia Elizabeth born in 1879 died in 1881.
I would be very interested if you could throw any light on John Evans Joyce’s Cashel Evans or possibly Pennefather connections.
Keep well,
Barry O’Sullivan
Hi Barry, I am very pleased to receive your comments about the Joyce family. You have added considerably to my knowledge of that family. You are correct that Margaret Joyce’s children were second cousins of my grandfather William Smith. I never heard anything about the Joyces from my Smith relatives so what I have written in my blog has come from my research activities.
I did not know when John Evans Joyce had died. There are so many John Joyces in the civil records that could not identify him. I knew he had died before 1911 when Margaret and several of her children were living in the Liverpool area. I also did not know who were John’s parents and where John was born (I thought he was born in 1848). I knew that John had been in the RIC but did not know he was later a Clerk of Petty Session in County Wexford. I did not know about the daughter called Ephemia Elizabeth (1879-1881). Her birth would fill part of the gap between Theobald and Emily; there may have been another infant between 1879 and 1883. Thank you for all that information.
At present I cannot throw any more light on John Evans Joyce’s connections to Cashel. I did notice that John and Margaret’s youngest son was named Walter Penefather Joyce. The Pennefather (two n’s) family of Cashel had faded a lot by the late 1880s. I do not know of any family connection with the Pennefathers.
About Terence Magrath’s occupation: the civil death record for Rebecca Magrath/ McGrath describes her as “a widow of a vicar choral”. Her deceased husband Terence T Magrath was a chorister and later vicar choral (similar to a choirmaster) in Cashel Cathedral. I have the impression that several of the Magrath men and boys were choristers in the Cathedral over many years. The choral work would not have given Terence an adequate living so he had other occupations. He was the Parish Clerk of St. John’s Parish. Also at various times he was Secretary of the Infirmary, Clerk of Petty Sessions and Actuary of the Cashel Savings Bank.
About Margaret Joyce’s inheritance from her mother Rebecca Magrath: Rebecca died on 23 December 1875. Her will was not probated until 27 October 1877 and that may have been because Margaret had to establish that her sister Rebecca had died. Both daughters were to inherit their mother’s real property, according to the will of William Bayly Upton. The probate record shows that Margaret Joyce was the sole legatee.
Margaret Magrath married John Evans Joyce on 14 June 1877 so she did not inherit the property until after she was married. What she inherited was quite a lot of property in Cashel but she could have sold it if she wanted. Given that her husband was in the RIC and moved around the country often (as can be seen in the location of their children’s births) maybe Margaret decided she could not manage the property from afar so it was sold. I have not followed that line of inquiry in the valuation records.
Thanks again for your message.
Jean